They're persistent, I'll give them that

[slowfox]

Following on from last week's brush with evangelising Americans... they were back, yesterday. Last week's guy had the genuine Million Dollar Smile™, this guy's smile was just a couple of cents shy of that high water mark, but he still had his 'Jesus Christ our Saviour' name badge:

Evangelising American: Hey, how are you today?

slowfox: I'm an atheist. Thanks. Bye.

Evangelising American: Why ever would you be one of them?

slowfox: Why would I not? Thanks. Bye.

Evangelising American: But have you tried prayer?

slowfox: ...

What we have here is a failure to communicate: I don't believe in God. Ergo, it's extremely unlikely that I would feel moved to offer prayers to a concept that I don't subscribe to.

I get a similar thing for being teetotal:

slowfox: I don't drink alcohol.

Other Party: What? Ever

slowfox: Nope, never have done. Hope never to do so.

Other Party: *slowly, in deductive fashion* So you've never been drunk...? Ever?

Comments

[yvi]

... they were back, yesterday

Wow. The cheek of some people. Do I go to their doors and talk about my Atheism to them? Do I go to their doors and say "Have you tried not believing in the historicity of Jesus?"

(Yes, I highly doubt that person even existed. I will *so* burn in hell if it exists)

[slowfox]

Actually, I believe that a bloke named Jesus existed, who was a political activist of the time, with, as it turns out, some decent things to say about humans might treat one another, ignoring reference to deities.

I do not believe that he was a son of (a) God, nor that he performed any kind of miracles, and rather suspect that the stories attributed to him are a mixture of rose-tinted hindsight, vague legends and deeds of other folk, all mixed up into one proto-character for ease of (re)telling.

[yvi]

That's the other option, of course :) Either way, I'd really not hear about him that much. Or a non-existent deity, no matter which variety.

I think living on the 3rd (4th) floor keeps people like that away from me. Which is sad, since I actually have a box full of Atheist/Naturalist/Secular pamphlets I could give them in return. They are called "Enlightenment in the 21st Century".

[slowfox]

I think the true Battle-Hardened Missionaries would see any kind of engagement with them as a possible win - if you're talking to them, they can engage you in 'debate'.

Anyway, they don't believe in Shiva. Or Thor. Or Isis. Or Zeus. Thus, they're almost as atheist as I am, the only real difference being that I believe in one fewer gods than they do. (I love that line of reasoning - can't remember from where I picked it up, though: might be PZ Meyers?)

[yvi]

Either PZ or Dawkins. I am re-reading "The God Delusion" right now and the "I am just an Atheist towards one more God" might be in there.

[slowfox]

May well have been Dawkins, then. I liked The God Delusion, but just wish he could have been less... aggressive in tone.

[yvi]

See, I don't read it as that aggressive. I found it refreshing :)

But, you know, radical Atheist and all that :)

[slowfox]

It's certainly refreshing, that I grant you.

[uninvitedcat]

I had a brief stint of weekend visits from evangelical something-or-other ladies. Unfortunately for them, they kept getting me out of the bath to answer the door. The second time around, one of them actually tried to launch into her spiel! I had to interrupt her to say I just wanted to go back to my bath, and shut the door on them. I was wearing a TOWEL for crying out loud!

[slowfox]

I was wearing a TOWEL for crying out loud!

OK, so previously unrealised attractions of doorstepping are springing to mind... ;-P

[uninvitedcat]

A towel and a grumpy expression - somewhat less attractive!

[glittertine]

Hmpf. Regarding the people who ask the What? EVER? question re not drinking alcohol, do they really always mean it in the "omg you're missing out on being drunk" way, or are they merely surprised? Because it is, statistically, very unusual to find a male person who has never drunk alcohol, you know. Anyway - I would probably have asked the same question! It does not necessarily imply that the person asking it thinks you are strange.

Re the Jesus people - what cheek is this. We leave them alone in their religiousness, so they should leave us alone. Seriously - I do like all the low-level social work the churches are doing, all the while despising the higher levels, especially of the Catholics - but the one thing that I utterly hate about the church is their mandate to replicate themselves by pulling other people over into their camp. Urgh. Go away!! Unfortunately, I'd be much too polite to just tell them to leave me alone - though I'd probably yell at them if they got aggressive like the guys you keep encountering!

Have I tried prayer? Yup! Been to catholic schools, too, for years. 'Come to the conclusion that your God's plan may just be to let anyone believe whatever they want. And I, for one, know what I don't believe in: your hate-mongering, vile, excluding, paranoid, distorting your own Jesus' message, despicable organisation of men. KTHXBAI.

Er, sorry about going off, there. Maybe you should make a sign so they know not to ring your doorbell for next Sunday? :)) "Atheist, don't bother."

[slowfox]

I would probably have asked the same question! It does not necessarily imply that the person asking it thinks you are strange.

It's not the strangeness aspect, it's the logic: I state that I've never drunk alcohol. Being drunk implies not only having drunk alcohol, but having drunk a large amount of said. This, if I state I've never drunk alcohol, how likely is it, really, that I'll then say 'but oh yeah, there was this one time I was completely off my face...' ;-P

We leave them alone in their religiousness, so they should leave us alone. Absolutely!


Unfortunately, I rather suspect that "Atheist, don't bother." on the front door would be something like a red rag to a bull: OMG (peace be upon him): we must SAVE this godless heathen!!11!1!!!

[glittertine]

Oh, nope, I wouldn't have asked about being drunk. ... I didn't get that they actually meant that question seriously, rather than rephrasing the initial question out of surprise. Oh, fr srs. I wonder if that's just an Brit thing, though - we don't *quite* have the culture of drinking alcohol for the sake of getting drunk, over here, at least not yet.

E.g. I do drink alcohol, but only that alcohol of which I like the taste - it boils down to cocktails and a handful of wines, really - but I hate being drunk. Thus, alcohol is something that happen very rarely in Tine-World. I don't get people who like being drunk.

[slowfox]

we don't *quite* have the culture of drinking alcohol for the sake of getting drunk, over here

Oh? I mean, I know that we have a legendarily bad reputation for alcohol abuse (and even worse when we export our good citizens abroad for their consitutional fortnight of inflicting ignorant brits on Europeans), but over here the perception is that the Germans and the Dutch can match the Brits on the drinking thing: things like Oktoberfest and all that?

Or is this a case of Brits looking at a beer festival and assuming that everyone else would approach such a thing in the same fashion they would: OMG - Beer tent! Must. Drink. Dry. Now.

[glittertine]

Yes, that, exactly. It's not that we can't drink, or, well, the guys mostly, anyway. But the attitude is different, it's about enjoying the yummy alcohol, rather than the ZOMG MUST GET DRUNK. Most people who do go to the Oktoberfest are doing so to have fun, meet people, enjoy the atmosphere, have a beer. People who go to the pub in the evening just go there for a bit to see a mate, not to get drunk.

Obviously, there *is* the younger set, and the youngish less educated set, who *do* do the whole WOHOO Al-oholYAYsway thing. There are concerns about youth drinking and it is getting worse, despite extra taxes on stuff that specifically targets the young, like Bacardi Breezers etc.. But nowhere near the level of Britishness. Personally, I think it's still to do with the attitude of having to get drunk as fast as possible before the last call, which we simply never had over here, so there wasn't ever a need for speed.

[slowfox]

I made my decision to be teetotal whilst still at primary school. So I was ten years old or younger... and that was not an academic decision at the time, since peers were drinking then.

Drinking age in the UK was/is 18, but by secondary school it was taken as read that if you were 13 or over, you drank. And the whole furtiveness (must not get caught!)/badge of honour (I drank 13 pints and am still standing!) thing that revolved around all this meant that there was a... competitiveness to the whole endeavour that sort of, I think, set the tone for how people faced alcohol as they went on.

[glittertine]

Yup, that's exactly what I heard about how this thing works in Britain. It makes no sense to me at all. :( Ten. *SHUDDER* Thirteen pints!! I doubt I could drink thirteen pints if my life depended on it.

We started "drinking" at around 13-14, as well. But it was all under the control of our parents, who bought the alcohol for us and were *there* at parties, there was hardly ever truly unsupervised drinking - so no problem with getting caught! And there only ever *was* drinking for occassions, never just any day. In my school, it may have been cool to "drink", but it really wasn't cool to be so pissed as to lose all self-control. No badges of honour, there. The quantities and regularity of drinking changed somewhat when we could buy our own alc, at 16 for beer/wine/breezers, at 18 for everything else, but even then, the line between cool and uncool was firmly drawn at someone starting to throw up. Not knowing when to stop to prevent atricious behaviour and throwing up was frowned at. I dunno - do you think it would be fair to say about your peers that it was not a good party if nobody was throwing up? Here, it just wasn't a good party if someone was throwing up.

But maybe I should not overgeneralise - obviously, this is my middle-class, city-based German experience. It might be different in other social environs and on the country-side.

[slowfox]

I dunno - do you think it would be fair to say about your peers that it was not a good party if nobody was throwing up? Here, it just wasn't a good party if someone was throwing up.

Absolutely! Comments would run like 'X's party was fantastic! Z was absolutely paraletic, and X threw up all over his mum's sofa! Also, quality was a direct function of the number of empty bottles that had to be disposed of in the morning.

But then, I'm talking about mid-80s, middle class kids' parties, and information is secondhand (from the post-party chatter at school the following day, or via my brother, who was in exactly that kind of crowd).

[glittertine]

No wonder you made that decision and stayed with it. Personally, I did that with smoking. Never tried, never will, it's icky and I simply never felt cowed in the slightest by peer pressure. Though to be fair, there was hardly any peer pressure in the first place.

[slowfox]

Oh, I'm the same about smoking too (and again, then, the opposite to my brother in that regard).

The one time when I was subject to peer pressure to smoke was in France - Rouen, actually - we were there on a school exchange, and the Brit kids were all skulking around the edge of the French school's playground, smoking (very few of them were old enough to smoke, legally, but they'd all been doing so for years by that point). This was the *cool* crowd, and for some reason, because my exchange partner was in a group of people who their exchange partners were in, we'd all been thrown together.

And for about a second, I actually considered accepting the offer of a cigarette from The Cool Bloke of the Year. And I mean about a second. But reason soon caught up with me: they didn't like me, and I'm sure it was offered more in the interests of sport (let's see what Ralph does) than in any spirit of generosity.

[glittertine]

Urgh. Kids. I hate social structures of teenagers. I'm so glad I am not one anymore! Glad you were smart enough not to fall for it (not that I think the smoking would have killed you, but giving in to those people always sucks). Yay for your young self!

[yvi]

Seriously - I do like all the low-level social work the churches are doing, all the while despising the higher levels, especially of the Catholics

Which in Germany is more than 75% or so funded by the government anyway. I love it when people tell me "society would shut down without church taxes" when they aren't used for kindergartens, schools and hospitals.

[carolanne5]

'Jesus Christ our Saviour' name badge ... OMG there are everywhere, I was stopped on Ealing Common on Saturday by two Americans with similar name badges. Although to forestall a debate I just said "sorry running for a train" rather than announce my athiest stance.

[slowfox]

I was stopped on Ealing Common on Saturday by two Americans with similar name badges.

*blinks* Is there an invasion or something?? I find it slightly bogglesome that there's a benefactor somewhere that feels it worthwhile to send these people across the pond to try and convert us (unless, of course, said benefactor just wants these people out of Their Back Yard... Hmm).

[alicit]

My first words whenever I open the door and see the badges are: "I am a Catholic Christian married to a Shiite Muslim, if we haven't changed religion already you are not going to make us change now". That generally shocks them into silence for a few seconds, which I use to say "Goodbye" and shut the door.

[slowfox]

That is AWESOME! :D

[aome]

I'm essentially tee-total; I think the most alcohol I've ever had in one go was about a half-glass of wine, or a mimosa (OJ and champagne), and that was quite some time ago. Because of medication and the diet, I've essentially dropped it entirely, aside from a rare sip of something Will's having, more out of curiosity than anything - but this is hardly a hardship because I never did develop a taste for alcohol. Where most people find it relaxing, I find getting a buzz of any sort to be disruptive and unsettling, and makes me more tense rather than the opposite; ergo, I have never been drunk and fail to understand the appeal. The most was "a bit tipsy" after that half-glass of wine, and I think that was only once.Occasionally I have enjoyed a small bit of Frangelico (hazelnut creme liquor) in my hot chocolate, but that's more about the hazelnut taste than the alcohol. And, again, not very much alcohol at that. I have no objection to people who enjoy the stuff, as long as they're not getting wasted (which I do object to), and I think many folks assume that if you don't drink, you must have some moral objection to it. But - nope, it's not for me.

The missionaries are, of course, trained to be persistent, because, really, anyone who has already made the realization that they want to seek God (or a new denomination), has already taken those steps on their own. Rather like telemarketers - same concept. But, yes, you'd think they wouldn't come TWICE, and would accept a curt door being shut in their face. :P

Methinks you either need a peephole installed in your door, or a sign that says "No solicitors". (Er - I guess "solicitors" are what "lawyers" are for us? But you get the idea - whatever the term is you'd use for people traipsing around the neighborhood trying to sell you things.) My father used to have a sign that said, "Day sleeper - do not disturb" which was a lie, but it dissuaded these sorts of people from knocking - and probably dissuaded some would-be burglars as well.

In any event - ergh.

[slowfox]

We don't - yet - have doorstepping solicitors in this Green and Pleasant Land, and for that, at least, I'm grateful.

I think many folks assume that if you don't drink, you must have some moral objection to it

Yes, I get that a lot - I even had a guy come up to me at a party once to say that he found it offensive that I didn't drink, and that clearly I was judging him or something. *sighs*

[sophie8]

Again alas poor Mali denied nutty Christian nomminess. And you said you'd let him!

Being a sort of Catholic, I get very embarrassed by these people. When I encounter them I tend to just walk away. Or shut the door in their faces.

[slowfox]

Or shut the door in their faces.

And then they continue to talk to the door (which is possibly more conversational than I, but still...)